There's probably no God...

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by wanderlust »

chanellejo wrote:I'm sorry I wasn't even thinking about you. Just atheists in general. :?
I spoke about myself because I am one of the atheists on this thread. I wasn't taking it personally.
I'm confused about what kind of point you were trying to make.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by ChanelleJo »

Hello? I just said I'm an atheist too. I can see you are confused, it's obvious.
Fist of, when you're an atheist you don't believe in God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and the shit load of saints people made up and brain washed kids in school. OK, now... my point is: as an atheist you cannot have the same beliefs as "God"- who said 'there is no life after death, it's a sin to believe in ghosts and supernatural, they don't exist yadda yadda yadda'... Why? Simply because we are atheists and we don't believe in God therefore we don't have "HIS" beliefs. Should I repeat myself more?
You might notice some spelling mistakes or grammar errors. Sorry, not a native English speaker.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by wanderlust »

chanellejo wrote:Hello? I just said I'm an atheist too. I can see you are confused, it's obvious.
Fist of, when you're an atheist you don't believe in God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and the shit load of saints people made up and brain washed kids in school. OK, now... my point is: as an atheist you cannot have the same beliefs as "God"- who said 'there is no life after death, it's a sin to believe in ghosts and supernatural, they don't exist yadda yadda yadda'... Why? Simply because we are atheists and we don't believe in God therefore we don't have "HIS" beliefs. Should I repeat myself more?
It doesn't matter if you are an atheist or not. Saying that atheists cannot have the same "beliefs as God" is absurd. I don't even know how to reply to that. Sorry that you feel the need to be rude about it.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by discrepancies »

chanellejo wrote:Hello? I just said I'm an atheist too. I can see you are confused, it's obvious.
Fist of, when you're an atheist you don't believe in God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and the shit load of saints people made up and brain washed kids in school. OK, now... my point is: as an atheist you cannot have the same beliefs as "God"- who said 'there is no life after death, it's a sin to believe in ghosts and supernatural, they don't exist yadda yadda yadda'... Why? Simply because we are atheists and we don't believe in God therefore we don't have "HIS" beliefs. Should I repeat myself more?
Actually, you're point makes no sense. The definition of an atheist is someone who believes that there are no higher beings/deities. We don't simply disagree with Christianity, so what their 'god' says is irrelevant to us. It doesn't matter if certain things we think align with what the Christian god has apparently said in the Bible, we can still believe them.
Just because the Christian god said something doesn't mean we can't say it.
Saying you're atheist doesn't mean you only don't believe in Christianity, and agreeing with somethings he supposedly said is irrelevant since we don't believe he is real anyway.
You really don't need to be so rude.
Can you photoshop your life with better decisions, Jerry?

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by ChanelleJo »

Hmm... If you feel offended it doesn't mean I'm rude, y'know...
I know exactly the definition of an atheist, keep calm. Odd things happen without explanation. You should probably watch Morgan Freeman who's also an atheist in "Life after death" documentary.
You might notice some spelling mistakes or grammar errors. Sorry, not a native English speaker.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by discrepancies »

chanellejo wrote:Hmm... If you feel offended it doesn't mean I'm rude, y'know...
I know exactly the definition of an atheist, keep calm. Odd things happen without explanation. You should probably watch Morgan Freeman who's also an atheist in "Life after death" documentary.
I am calm, and I'm sorry but you are being condescending and rude. I'm not offended, I simply think we can have a conversation without you being rude.
I do not believe in life after death, regardless of whether I call myself and atheist or not, that's something I don't believe in.
Can you photoshop your life with better decisions, Jerry?

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by ChanelleJo »

...But - Good God - you, people are REALLY sensitive and over dramatic.
You might notice some spelling mistakes or grammar errors. Sorry, not a native English speaker.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by discrepancies »

chanellejo wrote:...But - Good God - you, people are REALLY sensitive and over dramatic.
Right... I fail to see how I'm being dramatic but whatever. I'm done arguing about this...
Can you photoshop your life with better decisions, Jerry?

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by ChanelleJo »

Yeah, me too. Boring.
You might notice some spelling mistakes or grammar errors. Sorry, not a native English speaker.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by BrunetteBarbie »

I never really was sure about my beliefs until a few years ago and now I definitely know I believe in God/Heaven/Hell and I would call myself a Christian but that doesn't mean I believe in everything in the Bible or everything that's said at Church...

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by oxprincessxo »

Really, the only thing I want to comment on is this recurring trend of people thinking there's no God and that's all the more reason to live it up today. Personally, I find that really discouraging. After all, some people's idea of living it up is being a rapist, murderer, thief, etc. Without the consideration of any consequences after this life, what's to stop people from running completely rampant now? What makes us happy is totally subjective, so if there's nothing to keep us in line and everyone believed that, I think the world would be even uglier than it already is.

This is NOT at all trying to imply that anyone who's posted is a murderer, rapist, thief, etc. I was merely pointing out what I believe is a flaw in this way of thinking - it doesn't really include the whack jobs out there who get pleasure out of doing really horrible things.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by oxprincessxo »

BrunetteBarbie wrote:I never really was sure about my beliefs until a few years ago and now I definitely know I believe in God/Heaven/Hell and I would call myself a Christian but that doesn't mean I believe in everything in the Bible or everything that's said at Church...
Sorry for the double post, but I just wanted to say that I agree with BrunetteBarbie!

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by BrunetteBarbie »

Also I don't like being told I'm 'brainwashed', I wasn't raised religious, I didn't go to catholic school, I have like two religious friends. I chose to be religious so I am not brainwashed.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by HattieChaos »

oxprincessxo wrote:Really, the only thing I want to comment on is this recurring trend of people thinking there's no God and that's all the more reason to live it up today. Personally, I find that really discouraging. After all, some people's idea of living it up is being a rapist, murderer, thief, etc. Without the consideration of any consequences after this life, what's to stop people from running completely rampant now? What makes us happy is totally subjective, so if there's nothing to keep us in line and everyone believed that, I think the world would be even uglier than it already is.

This is NOT at all trying to imply that anyone who's posted is a murderer, rapist, thief, etc. I was merely pointing out what I believe is a flaw in this way of thinking - it doesn't really include the whack jobs out there who get pleasure out of doing really horrible things.
There are many flaws with that argument. You are implying we need religion for morality. Reminds me of the "If God commands it, is it good? Or did God command it *because* it's good?" argument. The first implies that God could command someone to murder someone else (As was in the story of Abraham) and we'd have to do it regardless of if it felt right or not because God commanded it. The second implies that morality is a higher power than God himself and that God is the one following moral rules themself rather than creating them - Which in turn means that we do not need God for morality because it exists separate from God. Also, just as a sidenote: People have mentioned this already, but the bible actually allowed rape in certain cases and also murder. It certainly isn't as clean as people think it is, on the moral scale.

You do not need religion to be a good person. There are many moral compass theories (Utilitarianism, Humanism, etc.) that exist *without religion*. The idea that religion is the source of all morality and that people that are not religious can't have a moral compass is very close-minded.

Unless you are a moral error theorist that doesn't believe morality exists at all. I am one of those, I mentioned it on my previous post on this thread. You can't believe in moral error theory and also be a religious person. That's because religion comes with morality. However, turning that around and saying that atheism must then come with a lack of morality is a fallacy and a logical error. You can still get atheists that believe in morality (most do, and abide by whatever moral theory they believe in). You can get atheists that don't believe in morality. You can not get religious people that don't believe in morality, however. Also, many religious people believe that their moral compass is in fact autonomous and that though they believe in God, they make their own moral decisions themselves rather than through God. So, keeping that in mind: Saying that atheists therefore live without morality is very, very wrong, because a lot of religious people claim morality is indeed seperate from God.

I am an atheist that doesn't believe there is any morality. This is because the very idea of morality begs for a belief in a higher power (I don't mean God - I mean morality itself, as a higher power) and that goes directly against my strict belief that there is no higher power. However, just because I don't believe that there is such a thing as a morally good and bad decision, I do believe you can still have good and bad decisions. Like, on a very small scale, not using a condom during sex with a stranger. That's a bad decision, it's just irresponsible. On a much larger scale - raping someone is a very bad decision. Because you are hurting someone, and it goes against my own principle that hurting people is wrong. These are bad decisions. However, neither of these are morally bad (or good) decisions. Because morality does not exist. People who believe in moral error theory tend to abide by their own set of principles that they more or less make up. Yes, that can lead to people deciding that hurting people is okay. That is an argument in itself, really. But logically, most arguments lead us to believe that a) There is no God, and as a result of that: b) There is no morality (which not all atheists believe). The real people you are arguing against are people in my position - that don't believe in God BUT ALSO don't believe in morality. Not just people that don't believe in God.

Also.. Do you, as a believer in morality, think that it is morally good to be good just because something nice is promised afterwards? Isn't it better to be good because being good is the right thing to do? I think Atheists who do not believe that they will get anything coming to them as a reward for being good, but do so anyway, are worth far more than people that do it just for this idea of "heaven". Personally, I just abide by trying not to hurt people, most of my principles lie in a peaceful world without chaos and I think the best way to achieve that is by not hurting people and by promoting equality. But I say that not just without any need for a God, but also without any need for a moral compass.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by Forever Eccentric »

I believe in God and I have my faith.

You could of approached this topic in a more mature way.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by wanderlust »

I am an atheist but I don't cheat, murder, or rape. The only things in recent years I've stolen was music I downloaded online but I don't even do that anymore. It isn't impossible to make good decisions/not break the law just because you don't believe in a higher power. The good that I do in my life, I do both for the sake of doing good and because it makes me feel good as well. I don't do it to please a higher power or because the Bible told me so.

Your morality argument has been argued to the point of exhaustion. Google it. Youtube it. Or, just read what HattieChaos said in her post.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by oxprincessxo »

HattieChaos wrote:
oxprincessxo wrote:Really, the only thing I want to comment on is this recurring trend of people thinking there's no God and that's all the more reason to live it up today. Personally, I find that really discouraging. After all, some people's idea of living it up is being a rapist, murderer, thief, etc. Without the consideration of any consequences after this life, what's to stop people from running completely rampant now? What makes us happy is totally subjective, so if there's nothing to keep us in line and everyone believed that, I think the world would be even uglier than it already is.

This is NOT at all trying to imply that anyone who's posted is a murderer, rapist, thief, etc. I was merely pointing out what I believe is a flaw in this way of thinking - it doesn't really include the whack jobs out there who get pleasure out of doing really horrible things.
There are many flaws with that argument. You are implying we need religion for morality. Reminds me of the "If God commands it, is it good? Or did God command it *because* it's good?" argument. The first implies that God could command someone to murder someone else (As was in the story of Abraham) and we'd have to do it regardless of if it felt right or not because God commanded it. The second implies that morality is a higher power than God himself and that God is the one following moral rules themself rather than creating them - Which in turn means that we do not need God for morality because it exists separate from God. Also, just as a sidenote: People have mentioned this already, but the bible actually allowed rape in certain cases and also murder. It certainly isn't as clean as people think it is, on the moral scale.

You do not need religion to be a good person. There are many moral compass theories (Utilitarianism, Humanism, etc.) that exist *without religion*. The idea that religion is the source of all morality and that people that are not religious can't have a moral compass is very close-minded.

Unless you are a moral error theorist that doesn't believe morality exists at all. I am one of those, I mentioned it on my previous post on this thread. You can't believe in moral error theory and also be a religious person. That's because religion comes with morality. However, turning that around and saying that atheism must then come with a lack of morality is a fallacy and a logical error. You can still get atheists that believe in morality (most do, and abide by whatever moral theory they believe in). You can get atheists that don't believe in morality. You can not get religious people that don't believe in morality, however. Also, many religious people believe that their moral compass is in fact autonomous and that though they believe in God, they make their own moral decisions themselves rather than through God. So, keeping that in mind: Saying that atheists therefore live without morality is very, very wrong, because a lot of religious people claim morality is indeed seperate from God.

I am an atheist that doesn't believe there is any morality. This is because the very idea of morality begs for a belief in a higher power (I don't mean God - I mean morality itself, as a higher power) and that goes directly against my strict belief that there is no higher power. However, just because I don't believe that there is such a thing as a morally good and bad decision, I do believe you can still have good and bad decisions. Like, on a very small scale, not using a condom during sex with a stranger. That's a bad decision, it's just irresponsible. On a much larger scale - raping someone is a very bad decision. Because you are hurting someone, and it goes against my own principle that hurting people is wrong. These are bad decisions. However, neither of these are morally bad (or good) decisions. Because morality does not exist. People who believe in moral error theory tend to abide by their own set of principles that they more or less make up. Yes, that can lead to people deciding that hurting people is okay. That is an argument in itself, really. But logically, most arguments lead us to believe that a) There is no God, and as a result of that: b) There is no morality (which not all atheists believe). The real people you are arguing against are people in my position - that don't believe in God BUT ALSO don't believe in morality. Not just people that don't believe in God.

Also.. Do you, as a believer in morality, think that it is morally good to be good just because something nice is promised afterwards? Isn't it better to be good because being good is the right thing to do? I think Atheists who do not believe that they will get anything coming to them as a reward for being good, but do so anyway, are worth far more than people that do it just for this idea of "heaven". Personally, I just abide by trying not to hurt people, most of my principles lie in a peaceful world without chaos and I think the best way to achieve that is by not hurting people and by promoting equality. But I say that not just without any need for a God, but also without any need for a moral compass.
There are a few things I want to address: First, I do believe in morality, and morality is tied with religion. Since you don't believe in morality, I'm not going to get into my beliefs regarding this connection as it's kind of irrelevant.

I was in no way trying to imply that all atheists are bad, or do bad things. I know most people who read my post probably thought I was saying atheists are bad, I don't want to associate with them, etc. This isn't true at all. Some of my closest friends are atheists, and while I disagree with their beliefs, I respect them and love them the same as I would any Christian, Muslim, Hindu (my aunt is Hindu and she is one of the most incredibly intelligent and lovely people I know) or someone believing anything else.

I was just trying to say that if there are no moral absolutes, there's nothing stopping people from doing whatever they want. You say you don't believe in morality. So if you did want to kill someone, why wouldn't you do it? Because it isn't a wise choice, or a good choice? If not morality, what do you consider a "good" or "bad" choice? What do these words mean at all, really, if not based on morality? You mentioned irresponsibility, but that implies all of our decisions are based on logic. I know I don't make all decisions based on logic, I (not to sound like a cheesy Hallmark movie) follow my heart more often than not. I know there are probably some scientific explanations for what makes up this heart I'm referring to, but I will always believe there's something that drives us to do things other than our brains, or I guarantee I would be a very different person.

I try to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I base my moral standards on the idea presented in the Gospel, that we should honor one another above ourselves and honor God above even that. I am still working out how I feel about certain things in the Old Testament (the story of Abraham is something I've always struggled with.)

Also, I genuinely appreciate your post. It was very well thought out and made me think. Thank you for actually responding with something intelligent as opposed to blind barbs that don't contribute to the conversation. I'm not trying to kiss your butt either, but I know a lot of people, when this argument comes up, resort to petty remarks that are just pointless. Again, I want to emphasize I still whole heartedly respect you, and based on your other posts I've read and agred with, think I would get along with you very well.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by KittenKaboost »

I'm not that great at debates guys, so sorry if I mess up or something. It's one of those skills I need to practice. Also I'm kind of new to this uhm religion I guess you can say, so I won't be able to answer people's question if they have any but I'll try my best to find it.

Anyways I am a Christian. My family is Christian also, but they are non practicing ones. When I was younger I believed in God but as I got older I started to question religion, and went from being spiritual (different from what I am now) to being agnostic. A year ago I decided that I wanted to be a practicing Christian.

I feel better with this descision, even though I do have troubles in my life but I feel happy. I see this more than just a religion but a relationship with God. I know this sounds crazy and I have been called that too but I don't care anymore. I go to church - not one that focuses on the illuminati and all those other stuff.
I have friends who are from different religions and athiest, I have no problem with that. I never push what I believe at someone but if they ask I'll try to answer the question. If they think it's stupid, they have the right to beliueve what ever they want. I still love them like any of my other friends.
I just never understand when people find out things about me and say, ooh you aren't perfect. Never said I was perfect nor do I try to act perfect. If I don't talk about sex in public it's not because "I'm Christian", they talk about it too, I've never been comfortable talking about certain stuff in public.
And I'm always worried (been like that since I can remember) but I am slowly changing I guess. Sorry if this is hard to understand, wasn't sure what I should type.

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by Kleineganz »

chanellejo wrote:Hello? I just said I'm an atheist too. I can see you are confused, it's obvious.
Fist of, when you're an atheist you don't believe in God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and the shit load of saints people made up and brain washed kids in school. OK, now... my point is: as an atheist you cannot have the same beliefs as "God"- who said 'there is no life after death, it's a sin to believe in ghosts and supernatural, they don't exist yadda yadda yadda'... Why? Simply because we are atheists and we don't believe in God therefore we don't have "HIS" beliefs. Should I repeat myself more?
How can you be an atheist, but at the same time talk about what "god" says? If "god" does not exist he/she/it/whatever can't have ever said anything - because they don't exist. The "words" you are referring to are probably from the Bible, am I right? The Bible was written by people (probably lots of different people over thousands of years, which is why it's so full of contradictions).

I see no reason why an atheist can't say something that also happens to be in the Bible. So what? Not everything in the Bible is BS (a lot is historically accurate, just take out all the miracles and stuff).

Also to be an atheist doesn't mean you just don't believe in "god" ... you believe there is no god, and never has been.

I'm an atheist and I say there is no god. However I do believe that there was a Jesus. Why? Because there are historical records of him. That doesn't mean he was the son of this non-existent "god" ... he was just a person, and he was trying to reform Judaism (he was Jewish after all), and the Rabbis didn't like that he was getting all up into their business. So they made a deal with the Romans and had him executed (and very possibly crucified since the Romans did that sort of thing a lot in those days).

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Re: There's probably no God...

Post by ChanelleJo »

Kleineganz wrote:
chanellejo wrote:Hello? I just said I'm an atheist too. I can see you are confused, it's obvious.
Fist of, when you're an atheist you don't believe in God, Jesus, Virgin Mary and the shit load of saints people made up and brain washed kids in school. OK, now... my point is: as an atheist you cannot have the same beliefs as "God"- who said 'there is no life after death, it's a sin to believe in ghosts and supernatural, they don't exist yadda yadda yadda'... Why? Simply because we are atheists and we don't believe in God therefore we don't have "HIS" beliefs. Should I repeat myself more?
How can you be an atheist, but at the same time talk about what "god" says? If "god" does not exist he/she/it/whatever can't have ever said anything - because they don't exist. The "words" you are referring to are probably from the Bible, am I right? The Bible was written by people (probably lots of different people over thousands of years, which is why it's so full of contradictions).

I see no reason why an atheist can't say something that also happens to be in the Bible. So what? Not everything in the Bible is BS (a lot is historically accurate, just take out all the miracles and stuff).

Also to be an atheist doesn't mean you just don't believe in "god" ... you believe there is no god, and never has been.

I'm an atheist and I say there is no god. However I do believe that there was a Jesus. Why? Because there are historical records of him. That doesn't mean he was the son of this non-existent "god" ... he was just a person, and he was trying to reform Judaism (he was Jewish after all), and the Rabbis didn't like that he was getting all up into their business. So they made a deal with the Romans and had him executed (and very possibly crucified since the Romans did that sort of thing a lot in those days).
Oooh, excuse the "GOD said...". I guess I should have said - The Bible says [...] - so you could understand. You really don't have to teach me what an atheist is, you know?
Most atheists think the Bible is full of shit, so just because you believe there was a Jesus... what can I say, I wish I was there too so he could've turned my water into wine. :cheers:
You might notice some spelling mistakes or grammar errors. Sorry, not a native English speaker.

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