oxprincessxo wrote:Really, the only thing I want to comment on is this recurring trend of people thinking there's no God and that's all the more reason to live it up today. Personally, I find that really discouraging. After all, some people's idea of living it up is being a rapist, murderer, thief, etc. Without the consideration of any consequences after this life, what's to stop people from running completely rampant now? What makes us happy is totally subjective, so if there's nothing to keep us in line and everyone believed that, I think the world would be even uglier than it already is.
This is NOT at all trying to imply that anyone who's posted is a murderer, rapist, thief, etc. I was merely pointing out what I believe is a flaw in this way of thinking - it doesn't really include the whack jobs out there who get pleasure out of doing really horrible things.
There are many flaws with that argument. You are implying we need religion for morality. Reminds me of the "If God commands it, is it good? Or did God command it *because* it's good?" argument. The first implies that God could command someone to murder someone else (As was in the story of Abraham) and we'd have to do it regardless of if it felt right or not because
God commanded it. The second implies that morality is a higher power than God himself and that God is the one following moral rules themself rather than creating them - Which in turn means that we do not need God for morality because it exists separate from God. Also, just as a sidenote: People have mentioned this already, but the bible actually allowed rape in certain cases and also murder. It certainly isn't as clean as people think it is, on the moral scale.
You do not need religion to be a good person. There are many moral compass theories (Utilitarianism, Humanism, etc.) that exist *without religion*. The idea that religion is the source of all morality and that people that are not religious can't have a moral compass is very close-minded.
Unless you are a moral error theorist that doesn't believe morality exists at all. I am one of those, I mentioned it on my previous post on this thread. You can't believe in moral error theory and also be a religious person. That's because religion comes with morality. However, turning that around and saying that atheism must then come with a lack of morality is a fallacy and a logical error. You can still get atheists that believe in morality (most do, and abide by whatever moral theory they believe in). You can get atheists that don't believe in morality. You can not get religious people that don't believe in morality, however. Also, many religious people believe that their moral compass is in fact autonomous and that though they believe in God, they make their own moral decisions themselves rather than through God. So, keeping that in mind: Saying that atheists therefore live without morality is very, very wrong, because a lot of religious people claim morality is indeed seperate from God.
I am an atheist that doesn't believe there is any morality. This is because the very idea of morality begs for a belief in a higher power (I don't mean God - I mean morality itself, as a higher power) and that goes directly against my strict belief that there is no higher power. However, just because I don't believe that there is such a thing as a
morally good and bad decision, I do believe you can still have good and bad decisions. Like, on a very small scale, not using a condom during sex with a stranger. That's a bad decision, it's just irresponsible. On a much larger scale - raping someone is a very bad decision. Because you are hurting someone, and it goes against my own principle that hurting people is wrong. These are bad decisions. However, neither of these are
morally bad (or good) decisions. Because morality does not exist. People who believe in moral error theory tend to abide by their own set of principles that they more or less make up. Yes, that can lead to people deciding that hurting people is okay. That is an argument in itself, really. But logically, most arguments lead us to believe that a) There is no God, and as a result of that: b) There is no morality (which not all atheists believe). The real people you are arguing against are people in my position - that don't believe in God BUT ALSO don't believe in morality. Not just people that don't believe in God.
Also.. Do you, as a believer in morality, think that it is morally good to be good just because something nice is promised afterwards? Isn't it better to be good because being good is the right thing to do? I think Atheists who do not believe that they will get anything coming to them as a reward for being good, but do so anyway, are worth far more than people that do it just for this idea of "heaven". Personally, I just abide by trying not to hurt people, most of my principles lie in a peaceful world without chaos and I think the best way to achieve that is by not hurting people and by promoting equality. But I say that not just without any need for a God, but also without any need for a moral compass.